Brains...

[wispfox]

OK, I'm all introspective (ok, perhaps that isn't all that noteworthy...) and stuff.

The idea of 'going on dates', as I believe it is generally understood, seems to be a combination of getting to know someone new and determining potential for a sexual relationship. It seems... odd to me to combine those two goals, because getting to know someone is, in my head, a perfectly delightful goal all on its own, and adding in conscious thought about a possible sexual relationship only adds large amounts of stress, confusion, and nervousness. It also makes it much more difficult to get to know a person entirely on the basis of who they are, rather than on future possibilities.

For me, getting to know someone _is_ an end goal, and generally one sparked by in-person meetings (sometimes planned, mostly not - and usually in decent-sized groups). I'd want to know more about them, whether I'm coming from a base of just having met them, or from some amount of knowledge gained before meeting them (online for example).

Sometimes, from friendship, comes the potential for some sort of relationship with includes sexual activity or the possibility thereof - but, for me, it always follows the friendship, and does not happen while trying to _form_ the friendship. (although, sometimes, I feel compelled to note, there has not been a whole lot of time between the two states. I've gotten much better at separating the two more clearly, since that _is_ how I work.)

It's true that, if I meet people online, I can form some level of interest in meeting them - certainly! But, for the most part, this is a fairly passive interest, and takes a fair amount (usually at least a few months of actual interaction) of time - I develop interest in meeting a person eventually, and won't, for example, feel a need to attempt to seek them out. This type of thing tends to result in me meeting a person at some sort of social activity that we'd both have been going to anyway. The actively seeking out also does happen based solely on online interaction (to my profound surprise), but ridiculously rarely.

So... I think that I'm very, very curious as to why it might make sense to any of you to do what I believe to be the 'typical' kind of dating, where getting to know people is simultaneous with investigating possibility of a sexual relationship. It seems... time-consuming, stressful, and not terribly effective for forming good bonds. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something?

Note: I _do_ realize that there are cases where people meet, have an instant connection, and therefore the getting to know is simultaneous with _everything_. But those are special cases. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking so-called 'typical' forms of dating (for those who don't understand the concept of dating in the US - I think I've explained what I'm talking about in enough detail? Especially since I don't really understand it, either... and considering that that word can mean entirely too many things).

Comments

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

Let me first note, I don't grok 'dating' either. It's not something I enjoy, it's not something I understand, and it's something I prefer to not do (probably goes without saying that as a result (not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg myself) I'm not all that good at it, imo, either). I've enjoyed the best relationships (friends, lovers, SOs, you name it) from those relations that have come together organically, through no formalized meetings with specified norms and folkways that only exist for the purpose of hooking up (and which, imo, require at a fundamental level a certain amount of lying-via-obfuscation).

All that aside, in answer to your question, I think it has everything to do with the weight/importance you place on sex. For some, sex is a spiritual connection, a deeper form of understanding, a stronger tie than friendship, a larger trust commitment, an expression of love. For others, sex is recreation, a form of friendship in it's own sake, a physical form of understanding that is no more or less deep but is categorically different, an expression of fondness (or just lust) that requires only a basic amount of trust, if any.

My guess would be that, for you, sex follows the first example, while for many others, sex follows the second format. -H...

[hawkegirl.livejournal.com]

I think I would say the weight/importance places on sex and/or your fear of sex. I've never had a problem with going out on a date, but I'm missing the "time consuming, stressful, etc" part of dating. I guess I don't feel pressure to have sex just because I'm going out on a date. I'm not going to have sex with someone if I don't want to, so it's just "getting to know you better" in my mind - with the potential for more. Frankly since I think most people have that potential to go further I sort of appriciate the upfront quality of calling a date a date. There are people I've met whom winding up with a sexual relationship is just not an option, in that case I'd take more of a "lets be friends" line, to put clarity on the boundarys of the relationship.

Obviously past experiences will be the ultimate deciding factor as to how one is going to look at dates. But I suspect the weight of sex on a "date" would vary greatly from person to person. To me it's simply saying there is no preset restriction.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I don't feel pressure to have sex just because I'm going out on a date.

Nor do I. But... someone who is going into a date with more intent than simply to get to know me will be giving off vibes of that fact, and they _will_ distract me from being able to get to know the person without that fact coming into play.

For me, with everyone I am at least reasonably close to, there is potential, if both parties are sufficiently interested, and there are no logical bars to that possibility (like someone being in a monogamous relationship, or someone simply not having any available energy, for example). But that doesn't mean I particularly want to be interacting with that consciously in my mind - it's a distraction, especially coming from someone I don't really know.

*shrug* Interesting, though. Thank you. :)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Nor do I. But... someone who is going into a date with more intent than simply to get to know me will be giving off vibes of that fact, and they _will_ distract me from being able to get to know the person without that fact coming into play.

Interesting. Why? (And what makes you think that is always transparently clear?)

People interact on many levels, why is a concurrent sexual level distracting?

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* Welcome to my brain.

I don't read body language well, but I _do_ have empathy. Translate that to, unless someone has amazing shields, I pick up on their emotional state. If they _do_ have amazing shields, it depends on what they are shielding. And, since part of how I get a sense of people is through empathy, if their shielding completely blocks that out, I can't be comfortable with a person.

The above is why it's transparently clear.

why is a concurrent sexual level distracting?

Because I can feel it. And, if my mind isn't in that context, it's confusing and distracting and distressing.

[lisajulie.livejournal.com]

I've always struggled with the definition of a "date". I mostly hang out with people I want to get to know as people. Some become friends, a few become lovers.

But, Miss Manners has an answer to _what_ constitutes a date:

There are three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be
offered: entertainment, food, and affection. It is customary to begin
a series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate amount
of food, and the merest suggestion of affection. As the amount of
affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced proportionately.
When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.

-- Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior

[lerryn.livejournal.com]

So, does that mean going to a movie is only a date of you buy popcorn?

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

I think what Miss Manners would have written specifically for people I know is something like this: "Given the bizarre metabolic problems of most American geeks, it is vital that a blood sugar crash be avoided at all costs. Consequently, under no circumstances may the food be omitted."

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

Food! *munches*

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

for myself, i decided to try dating in a more specific manner because i am finding i have much more specific things i am looking for. i am also feeling like the peoeple that i know here i am not finding sexually attractive for whatever reason. there are a few people i have found sexually attractive, but i dont' want to date them because of other issues. (frex: one is in a now closed r'ship, another's r'ships don't look uberstable right now, etc.)

so, i decided to give it a whirl. so far, it's been a good thing, despite added stress and stuff. and besides, i hadn't done it before and i like doing new things. i am learning a lot about myself in the process. and the people i keep meeting turn out mostly to be known to some of my friends, which is helping too.

i seem to be seeking something really specific, and the dating thing is allowing me to meet people outside of my normal bounds. because i can be quite introverted, and because i am such a hermit during the school year (and last summer) i feel like this is a way for me to explore many new people.

additionally, i tend to be sexually attracted very early on. sex itself is waiting, but i can usually tell from a kiss whether or not we're mostly compatable.

i'm waiting for food to cook, sorry if i'm babbling.

n.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

*nods* Interesting. Thanks for the info on why one might want to date!

*munches on food for thought* ;)

[regyt.livejournal.com]

I don't go on dates. it's not a terminology or ritual I've ever felt drawn to or cared to use. They don't really make much sense to me, because they feel artificial, and I would rather get to know people simply doing things that we happen to enjoy, alone, in groups, wherever. Though I do tend to do better in one-on-one interactions or small groups, simply because I prefer not to have to scatter my attention too much.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Ditto for all of this, for me. :)

Dating is scary

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Dating is just like meeting in groups with friends, but with at least one and possibly both parties expressing a particular interest in the other person's potential.

It is a focused interest in a person - where it leads depends upon how it goes. Sure, that could be sex, friendship, a powerful desire to leave in a hurry... a story to tell. Or an occasion that is fun, but which need not be repeated.

It is scary (and courageous) to be the first to say something. That's why "dating in groups" is less risky-seeming. And being pursued can be scary too.

[lerryn.livejournal.com]

What's typical dating? I'm married and have had a couple other reationships and still haven't done mutch in the way of "real" dates. I met my wife while running an RPG, met one secondary partner at my wedding (there's irony for you) and had known another for several months before considering a relationship outside friendship. I think whatever wierdness you have in this area, I have it too.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

What's typical dating?

I have no idea. :)

I think whatever wierdness you have in this area, I have it too.

Sounds like it!

[moosemonster.livejournal.com]

I always assumed that, in the US, dating was a euphemism for fucking. Now I think I need to reevaluate some conversations I've had here :-)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Heh!

Depends on the person. For some people, it _is_, but I believe for most people it is not. As well, there is a difference between the meaning for "going on a date" - usually intended to get to know someone better, often including overt interest in possibility for sexual activity - and the meaning for "dating" - generally if someone is said to be dating a specific person or persons, there already is some established potential or actual sexual activity going on.

I think there may be other variations on that damn word, which is part of why it's so confusing. People can also be said to go on dates with people they've been with for a while, in which case it's about nothing more than going out somewhere with them for a while, and people can go on dates with people who are nothing more than friends (same def as previous).

That is possibly the most confusing word _ever_. Which is why I put so much effort behind defining what I was attempting to use it to talk about.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

That is possibly the most confusing word _ever_.

You should try defining love. (:-)

(You do know that even people who are celibate can go on dates, right?)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

*points at a comment made in the comment you replied to*

people can go on dates with people who are nothing more than friends

But the thing is, this is _not_ the typical idea of a date. And it's not the kind of date for which knowing someone's availability makes any sense.

It's far, far closer to what _I_ do when I go on dates with people, and I rarely actually use that phraseology for the reasons of severe confusion. To _me_, 'going on a date' implies one-on-one, and requires that I've at least met someone, preferably more than once. It does _not_ imply anything but getting to know a person better, and implies a (generally stated on my part) interest in getting to know the person better in order to develop a friendship.

I tend to avoid the word 'date' when indicating interest in knowing people better, because of the confusion factor. I technically, at least in the common usage of the word, don't 'go on dates', except with people I'm _already_ involved with. I go hang out with people, I do things with people, but I don't call it a date.

Yes, I'm aware that it's nit-picky terminology stuff, but this is _important_ - there are entirely too many words which mean entirely different things to different people, and most of them don't realize this fact.

(Also, I feel like I'm starting to have to repeat myself in trying to explain things to you, which is frustrating the hell out of me, and probably implies a fairly basic disconnect and low level assumptions being made on one or both of our parts)

[ladytabitha.livejournal.com]

I won't track this down, but I did bitch about this ages ago:

I want a variant on "date" that means "two people hanging out together", like "coffeedate" or "dinnerdate" - not romantic, just a specific set time slot for a specific one-on-one event.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Can I have one of those, too?

[majes.livejournal.com]

Well - to say "We are dating" often times means that. However, I have heard people say "We are just dating" indicating that they are still in the meeting, possibly making out phase. Going out on a date, on the other hand, only means that you are meeting someone and doing something together.

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

However, "we've been going out for a while" translates to "dating".

Very complicated, linguistically. *sighs at the confuzzlement*

[majes.livejournal.com]

The idea of 'going on dates', as I believe it is generally understood, seems to be a combination of getting to know someone new and determining potential for a sexual relationship....and adding in conscious thought about a possible sexual relationship only adds large amounts of stress, confusion, and nervousness.

When I very first meet someone, I usually know right away if I find them attractive in some fashion or another. I may find them physically attractive or it may be something about their mannerisms or about the topics which they are interested in talking about - but nonetheless, there is an assessment made right away. The assessment is certainly related to compatibility - that is to say that its my mind processing "Is this a person I'm interested in knowing better or not?"
Assuming I have the opportunity to observe that person in a social situation, I generally make that determination right then and there (though, in a few situations, I've made a determination one way on first meeting and had it adjusted by future such meetings). After I've made up my mind, the next mission is confirming the assessment - taking opportunities to get to meet that person in group settings or in private (if I feel comfortable enough at that point to do so). Usually, one good long conversation will do it for me, at which point I know if I have interest in going further or not.
My behavior in the getting to know you phase I describe above technically counts as going on a date, in the traditional sense - i.e. we're going to meet somewhere, probably have something to eat, and then hang out somewhere thereafter and talk. As far as sex goes, for me it doesn't exist in this phase. That's my hang-up - I don't pursue sex until mutual interest in that is fairly clearly established (and often times not even for a while after that). How long this takes depends on circumstance and time. If I had a lot of quality time with someone new, I suppose it could technically develop from "Getting to know you" to "Making out" in a few days - that's never happened, but it seems possible, given sufficient initial compatibility, the right environment, and some really good energy. In reality, this has normally taken me... about three to four months of consistent time around the other person. Once the making out stage is reached - sex is not far off. Once again though, I have to feel that whole "mutual attraction" thing. For a mix of reasons, I'm not inclined to consider the possibility of sex until I'm starting to pick up on signs that the other person is interested. I am a sexual person, but I just sorta assume (perhaps incorrectly) that if anyone was interested, they would bring it up. Otherwise, I tend to assume that all relationships, even ones where I go out on dates, are developing into friendships.

So, for me, going out on dates is just a way to establish connections and potential friendships. Negotiations to get into a sexual relationship might happen during a date, but that's not the reason I go on dates.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

As far as sex goes, for me it doesn't exist in this phase.

Yes. Ditto.

for me, going out on dates is just a way to establish connections and potential friendships.

This is also what _I_ do for dates w/people, but that is not what most people think of. It's the case where people are thinking of the typical idea of dating which confuses the hell out of me.

And, as stated earlier, this kind of thing (one-on-one interaction with someone) _requires_ that I've met them, or it won't make sense to me.

[danodea.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in the typical type of dating. Certainly not for me, and maybe not for anyone. Well, OK, it probably works for someone - everything seems to work for at least someone. But I don't think that it works that well in general.

I much prefer to develop solid friendships, and then if there is a spark there for something more, then think about pursuing that something more.

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

I think being poly totally messes with my perception of "dates". Being interested in someone and pursuing it for me eventually involves juggling schedules with two SOs, making sure my two SOs are comfortable with the person[1], and if interest in anything sexual comes up, following a very carefully worded set of safety guidelines which might take up to six months to comply with.

If I wind up in a situation where someone is or might be interested in me, I generally try to work in all that information as early as I can without seeming presumptuous, but it's hard. I make it worse by becoming attracted to people easily, and I have a bad habit of being attracted to people who like me back.

Consequently, I absolutely love the idea of being able to go out on a "date" with someone where they already know how my life is set up, where we could just go out to dinner and talk. It wouldn't matter how attracted we were to each other because we would have already agreed to just go home at the end and say "thank you for a lovely evening", and there would be _no chaos or confusion_. I don't think this idea of a "date" has anything to do with the monogamous world's.

[1] I try to make this easier by giving my SOs a list of people I "would hit on if I had the opportunity and thought it would get me anywhere." This sometimes helps a little, sometimes fails to help, and sometimes just gives people things to tease me about. :)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

and I have a bad habit of being attracted to people who like me back.

*laugh* That's a _bad_ habit?

But yes, this all makes perfect sense to me. That probably just means we're strange in similar ways. ;)

(which, on the whole, I suspect is true for _most_ people who read me!)

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

*laugh* That's a _bad_ habit?

It's terrible! Attraction brings chaos, and it's just trouble. Nothing but trouble. While we're at it, relationship are trouble too. So are girls. I hear boys are trouble, too!

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Ewwwwwww!

You have cooooootieeeees!

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

*nods emphatically*

Friendship always comes before dating for me. Very, very sapiosexual, I am.

How else would I know whether I'd get along with the person? :)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

How else would I know whether I'd get along with the person?

Yep! Yep, yep, yep... :)

(come on, someone be surprised that I agree with you! ;)

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

Whatever are you talking about? We never agree with eachother. Evar. :D