[brains] Shyness in other people

[wispfox]

So, I have a really difficult time remembering that most (all?) the people I have been or am close to think of themselves as shy, because they either have never been shy at me (that I could pick up on) or were shy around me in a situation that I can't imagine anyone ever _not_ being shy in.

I have frequently been informed that I make it easy to not be shy around me (or perhaps at me). I don't really understand this, though.

I mean, yeah - I probably would not notice anyone (to a degree where I remember them later, at least) who was being highly shy at me, so that'll automatically select out such people. But... there are some people who tell me they are shy who, when I first met them, were being _anything_ but shy. (my roommate is one such example)

I do wonder if it relates to the fact that I may not behave appropriately around people who are being shy, if I have sufficient social energy that I am not myself being shy - perhaps because I may not pick up on it? And, well, I'm sufficiently random that I will share interestings observations with anyone who happens to be nearby... which might give shy people an opening with which to interact with me? And, well, people doing sufficiently interesting things is likely to cause me to just start talking to them about it.

I don't know. I don't get it! Yet another thing I should figure out how to bottle up and sell - the defusing of shyness that I apparently exude.

Anyone happen to be able to explain this to me?

Comments

[ayalanya.livejournal.com]

coupla things:

1. i'd say on my part it's being shy *at* you rather than *around* you - you don't ping either the shy or social anxiety bits in me, so it's easy to be non-shy at you and easy to have one-on-one bits with you without the "aiee nerves!" kicking in. however, i definitely remember at least one instance of being shy while around you.

2. yeah...when we met there was definitely no shyness involved. (*grin* me: "i'm straight! really!" [both of you]: "no you're *not*!" me: "...okay, you're right. *more snuggling*") - on the other hand, the setting involved multiple people that i already knew decently well, so the comfort level was already established internally, and thus the people i didn't know (i think there were three total, you included) didn't register as non-comfortable people.

[beowabbit]

Most of the time when I’ve seen you around people, you’ve given off very “approachable” vibes. I think this has to do with smiling a lot, making eye contact, seeming to have a lot of energy and putting it into a conversation, but also seeming really interested in what other people have to say. Basically, you seem energetic without seeming intimidating. In a word, you’re engaging.

[ayalanya.livejournal.com]

fascinating! the very qualities you mention are things that (usually, and in other people) make me nervous and set off the "ack, too much, must hide" bits. i have *extreme* difficulty with eye contact, f'rinst.

[sunstealer.livejournal.com]

Eye contact is such a chameleonic thing (is that even a word?) It can be an invasion of your privacy and feel like someone is expecting something from you so easily, mostly I think because people don't do it all that often.
But eye contact coupled with a gentler or compassionate demeanor is pretty inviting, sort of a respectful "hey, I'm interested in you in some way" approach. As beowabbit said, engaging rather than intimidating.
...so there's my rambling 2 cents worth :)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I also inquisitively point _you_ at what I said to aelisdeliria. :)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I have to wonder if the eye contact thing is entirely dependant on people's responses to it. For those who appreciate it, I can believe that I adjust so that I do more of it. For those who don't, or who actively seem to not want it, I'll can believe that I put my energy to better use elsewhere.

I suspect that any time I'm using eye contact, I'm also hyper-aware of other people's reaction to it - otherwise, I'm probably not sufficiently energetic to be attempting to interact with people I don't know very well.

And, I will also note that 'looking intently at a person' is _not_ the same thing to me as 'using eye contact'. I can sometimes turn off my eyes, I suspect, if I'm listening hard enough, which probably is part of where I initially got my 'hey! stop staring at people!' thing from. Because when I am _thinking_ hard, I'll look away. And if I'm having trouble hearing, I'll try to read lips and/or tip my ears toward a person.

Fascinating.

[beowabbit]

I don’t know; since I only notice your eye contact when it’s directed at me, I’ve only ever been aware of you doing it one way.

I definitely do the trying to read lips and/or turn ears towards a person thing; I do that a lot at the Diesel.

However, when I mentioned eye contact as part of your “approachable” vibe, I wasn’t thinking so much about quantity as about using it as part of the package that shows you’re interested in the conversation and invites the other person to speak and participate. I was basically thinking about things that make you seem attentive. I don’t know whether you make eye contact more than other people, but I know that your eye contact often serves as a cue that it’s my turn to talk, or that you’re interested in what I’m saying, or (from a few feet away and combined with a smile) that I can come up and say hi. If you were always making eye contact, that wouldn’t be nearly as engaging, because it would lose its ability to regulate the rhythm of the conversation.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

thinking about things that make you seem attentive.

Ah! Almost certainly the various things that I was taught to be aware of, and eventually included in my set of things that I need to do. Interesting!

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I point you inquisitively at my reply to aelisdeliria.

[echospiralheart.livejournal.com]

most people don't see me as shy because I have no problem holding my own in a conversation. One on one ... I am so not shy. However, large groups of people that I don't know or putting me at the center of attention in a large group will definately bring out my shy factors.

[regyt.livejournal.com]

You figured out that I get shy. You told me that you told australian_joe so.

And yet, I seem to be good at making people not be shy around me. People always seem to open up to me and tell me stuff, even personal stuff. I've always figured that it was because I care, and they can tell, and because Imy tendency towards subjectivism comes off as seeming non-judgmental, and because I'm generally pretty open, even when shy. (And I stop being shy as soon as I get one-on-one with people, usually.) I end up feeling like a Charles de Lint-ish tree of tales, which I like.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

You figured out that I get shy. You told me that you told australian_joe so.

Yes...

True!

But for some reason being able to figure out that someone is shy (which I'm apparently good at) is different than remembering it when it applies and actually seeing examples of it in person. And knowing someone online first means I _will_ notice them being shy - because I remember you being shy when I first met you.

So, interesting. 'Though I was initially attempting to understand my apparent shyness reduction abilities in other, this is still a very good point. :)

And yet, I seem to be good at making people not be shy around me. People always seem to open up to me and tell me stuff, even personal stuff.

Yup, yup, yup! Me, too. And I like your comments on why you think this is true for you. Food for thought. :)

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

"I am prince of stories, Will. But I have no story of my own, nor will I ever. But I thank you." Dream, The Sandman

[dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com]

I think partly you probably avoid the kinds of situations which seem to be set up for maximal shyness -- that is, large groups of people who don't know each other very well. Also, as soon as you open your mouth, it becomes evident that you're not the super-judgemental/ultra-socially-acceptable type, and so you seem pretty likely to be pretty accepting, and impression reinforced by the fact that you're open and straightforward in conversation. So for people who are shy because they're afraid of judgement and suchlike, that's probably very reassuring :)

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

partly you probably avoid the kinds of situations which seem to be set up for maximal shyness -- that is, large groups of people who don't know each other very well.

True, I very much do.

And, as far as the rest, I guess it's just that I have such a hard time understanding people who _don't_ behave that way that I tend to not think of it. But still, a good point!

[dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com]

And, as far as the rest, I guess it's just that I have such a hard time understanding people who _don't_ behave that way that I tend to not think of it.

I don't claim to understand it, but have definitely experienced it. Part of the reason why I can be shy in social situations is basically the fear that people who I like or find interesting won't reciprocate.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Part of the reason why I can be shy in social situations is basically the fear that people who I like or find interesting won't reciprocate.

And, of course, being shy can all too easily come across as arrogance. *sigh*

[randysmith]

(I haven't read the other posts, so I don't know if I'm duplicating. I'm afraid I'm feeling lazy tonight, but I intended
to respond to this and forgot, so I want to do it now that you've
reminded me).

For me it's very simple, and has to do with the same stuff we've
talked about before in the lack of easy access to non-verbal cues
and your resulting tendency to orient very strongly towards simply
saying what you're thinking/feeling. With you, I don't feel like
I have to wonder how you're feeling; I can usually just directly
trust what you're saying, or if there's some confusion that I want
resolved, I can ask. With most people, there's a whole set of
non-verbal cues, and while I *can* ask (and switch the interaction
to the verbal level) even asking is a non-verbal cue of a sort.
It's complicated and scary; I do it, but I don't think I'm
particularly good at it. And one aspect of that dance is often
not being sure where I stand. Your style of interaction means that
those worries don't come up. This is somewhat based on knowing
you, but I think some of the interaction patterns do show up
fairly quickly.

Make any sense?

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

lack of easy access to non-verbal cues
and your resulting tendency to orient very strongly towards simply
saying what you're thinking/feeling. With you, I don't feel like
I have to wonder how you're feeling; I can usually just directly
trust what you're saying, or if there's some confusion that I want
resolved, I can ask. With most people, there's a whole set of
non-verbal cues, and while I *can* ask (and switch the interaction
to the verbal level) even asking is a non-verbal cue of a sort.

Interesting! I've realized lately that I rely really heavily on non-verbal cues, to the point where if words say one thing and body language and tone of voice say another, I tend to weigh them something like 80/20 in favor of the non-verbal cues.

This might be due to a lack of trust on my part about what people say! It's not that I'm great at either, I'm just less trusting about one than the other. People can be following complicated social rules I don't understand, have strange motives, lie, or just make mistakes in what they are saying. I run into problems where the non-verbal cues are ambiguous -- "I am uncomfortable / sick / upset about something unrelated to you" can look a lot like "I hate you! Go away!" unless you are paying close attention and have other information with which to disambiguate. I find it really hard to handle body language (or tone of voice) that says one thing and words that say another, since I'm not good at tuning out "noise" from the body language.

This often sucks for me because while it might be a decent defense mechanism for dealing with most people, a lot of geeks have very non-standard non-verbal behavior!

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I've realized lately that I rely really heavily on non-verbal cues, to the point where if words say one thing and body language and tone of voice say another, I tend to weigh them something like 80/20 in favor of the non-verbal cues.

Um. My. How, then, do you deal with people with little or strange body language? I'm fairly sure that you're living with someone for whom that applies, so I'm really fascinated by this. :)

And now I'm wondering if you've ever interacted with me when I was really tired, because apparently my body language mostly (entirely?) goes away, as well as my ability to read other people's. Hmm...

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

How, then, do you deal with people with little or strange body language? I'm fairly sure that you're living with someone for whom that applies, so I'm really fascinated by this. :)

And now I'm wondering if you've ever interacted with me when I was really tired, because apparently my body language mostly (entirely?) goes away, as well as my ability to read other people's. Hmm...

I deal with it very poorly! It's a huge problem. _No_ body language in particular is different, and in that case I just pay attention to speech the same way you do.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

_No_ body language in particular is different, and in that case I just pay attention to speech the same way you do.

Oh, I see. I wonder if you have the same confusion problems with my body language that others have commented on, where the overt and sightly exhaggerated stuff conflicts with the (usually unrelated) more subtle stuff I am not aware of... Hmm...

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

lack of easy access to non-verbal cues and your resulting tendency to orient very strongly towards simply saying what you're thinking/feeling.

Point, but I don't know how well this comes across to people I just met... which is at least partly what I was confused about. :)

This is somewhat based on knowing you, but I think some of the interaction patterns do show up fairly quickly.

Yeah, this. :) Makes me wonder if specifically non-social settings are in fact easier for people to meet me in. It'd be odd if so, since I tend to try to keep personal and work so very separate!

shyness

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

I'm in the unusual position of having encountered you only at psinging for a long time -- a largish group of people many of whom I did not know well. I would certainly have run into problems with shyness if I had really wanted to interact with you more at that point, although it mostly would have taken the form of working much harder than a normal person to find a "polite" and "unintrusive" way to get your attention.

In groups like psinging I tend to leave people I don't know alone out of politeness, and don't think about them in terms of being people I could potentially become friends with. Of course, psinging is different on different nights -- people are a lot friendlier more often nowadays than they were when I first started coming, so the feel of the group changes and I feel like I am allowed to interact with strangers a little more.

You never did anything that would make me not be shy towards you until around the time of bluepapercup's party, or maybe when you noticed we were 90% matches on OKCupid, I think. :) Before then I knew what you looked like, how you moved and held yourself, what your singing voice sounded like, and what songs you requested.

Re: shyness

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I'm in the unusual position of having encountered you only at psinging for a long time

True. Not terribly well set up for the meeting of new people, that.

mostly would have taken the form of working much harder than a normal person to find a "polite" and "unintrusive" way to get your attention.

*wry* Considering that is generally a difficult thing to do, yeah - although apparently I'd noticed you enough to recognize you and be startled at that party (I thought it was moominmolly's party? Or did I only notice and not really interact with you there?).

I think the OK Cupid thing was after moominmolly's party, and I can certainly see how my sending mail entirely out of the blue would help reduce shyness, at least on the part of the receiver of the email (_initiating_ email of a remotely personal nature to people I barely know makes me shy, though!). I also think that particular email was before bluepapercup's party... and I was interacting with you fairly directly (often, it felt, to your mild startlement/confusion, I think!), so I can see how that would have been a possible shyness reduction thing.

So, yeah - by the time I was interacting with you, you had some sense of me. Which does sorta get rid of shyness all on its own, I think. Neat!

Re: shyness

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Randomly, and in an amused sort of way, I often feel a bit like I'm acting stalker-ish when I send people mail out of the blue, especially if it indicates interest of any sort.

I do it _anyway_, and as of yet I've never had anyone react as if it comes across tht way. But I still feel like it a bit when writing such things.

Thought you might be amused. :)