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wispfoxThings which I apparently tend to forget to mention, with variations on how widely applicable the information is.
Perhaps because it seems obvious to me, based on how much difficulty I have with the lack, I apparently seem to forget to mention that touch is, for me, one of (if not the top one) the most effective ways to cause me to feel loved. This is especially true for casual touch, because it also has the effect of reminding me that people are aware of me and/or thinking of me in a far more useful way than words can. Being held and cuddling are also high up in the making me feel loved scale; they are sufficiently different from casual touch (and I think I have regular need for both sets), though, that I can't make any sort of comparison between the two.
So, in a more explicit manner, I say: unless it's an interruption (which I think translates as touch without me knowing that someone from whom that is appreciated/likely is near enough to do so, or touch which requires active interaction from me if I'm otherwise occupied) or I'm so thoroughly overstimed that I want no people near me at all (which I'm reasonably good at stating, and then going elsewhere), casual touch[1] from anyone that I tend to initiate touch with[2,3] (including hello and goodbye hugs) is always welcome.
Except at work. I appear to be thoroughly confused (which people have frequently interpreted as being upset by, even though that isn't the case) by casual touch - even from people where that makes sense in a non-work context - at work. Probably because it feels like a wrong time/place thing, so I completely don't expect it. (It's really quite fascinating how strongly I base things on what I do and do not expect, incidentally)
Non casual touch - like cuddling - has a more restrictive set of people than this, but pretty much the same set of guidelines. (ie, if I've initiated it before, or it's been discussed as a possibility, then follow the same non-interruption and non-overstimed rules as above)
It appears to be the case in my head that low-key sexual behavior (apparently defined in my head as kissing and making out and similar types of behaviors) - presuming appropriate conversations and/or past behavior along those lines - has similar guidelines, as well. I may or may not be actively interested enough to have initiated on my own, and may or may not actually have a libido (although this is likely to remind me that it exists), but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy smooching and making out. (this does have a caveat relating to barrier rules and such, in that that is yet another significant boundary in my head - so being good with smooching and making out and such does not mean anything about anything further)
[1]The casual touch definition in my head = generally fairly brief, but very intentional, contact. Sorta like a touch-based ping.
[2] If there isn't past initiating of [specific type of touch] with someone and it has not been discussed as something that's ok, though, [specific type of touch] from them will probably weird me out and not be a good thing. Probably because I need at some level to be able to expect that it'll happen, and people that I've not initiated [specific type of touch] with are, and might never be, in my head as someone that makes sense with.
[3]I note that 'if I've initiated' are also covered by cases where things are mutually initiated!
I tend very much to not like to ask people to do things if I have tending to be the one asking, because that will start to make me feel like they don't actually _want_ to do it, and are just agreeing to be kind to me. I want people to be doing things involving me because they want to, and not only because I've asked.
This has interesting effects both when I'm interacting with someone who is known to be bad about suggesting things or thinking to interact with people (regardless of actual interest), and when I'm strongly needing interaction of a certain type but those who I can ask don't tend to actively want that kind of interaction. I will still tend to ask, but it'll take me longer to do so. I frequently won't realize that I'm doing it, as these are my default behavior, and are not conscious.
Similarly default is the fact that, the more strongly I need something, the more likely I am to hide it, entirely unconsciously. I think it relates to the not wanting to be the one asking all the time and wanting people to do things involving me because they want to. But... it can be a problem, especially if I don't realize that I'm doing it, and it takes the need smacking me upside the head to realize that it's there (which is generally far later than when I _should_ have been having it addressed).
Perhaps because it seems obvious to me, based on how much difficulty I have with the lack, I apparently seem to forget to mention that touch is, for me, one of (if not the top one) the most effective ways to cause me to feel loved. This is especially true for casual touch, because it also has the effect of reminding me that people are aware of me and/or thinking of me in a far more useful way than words can. Being held and cuddling are also high up in the making me feel loved scale; they are sufficiently different from casual touch (and I think I have regular need for both sets), though, that I can't make any sort of comparison between the two.
So, in a more explicit manner, I say: unless it's an interruption (which I think translates as touch without me knowing that someone from whom that is appreciated/likely is near enough to do so, or touch which requires active interaction from me if I'm otherwise occupied) or I'm so thoroughly overstimed that I want no people near me at all (which I'm reasonably good at stating, and then going elsewhere), casual touch[1] from anyone that I tend to initiate touch with[2,3] (including hello and goodbye hugs) is always welcome.
Except at work. I appear to be thoroughly confused (which people have frequently interpreted as being upset by, even though that isn't the case) by casual touch - even from people where that makes sense in a non-work context - at work. Probably because it feels like a wrong time/place thing, so I completely don't expect it. (It's really quite fascinating how strongly I base things on what I do and do not expect, incidentally)
Non casual touch - like cuddling - has a more restrictive set of people than this, but pretty much the same set of guidelines. (ie, if I've initiated it before, or it's been discussed as a possibility, then follow the same non-interruption and non-overstimed rules as above)
It appears to be the case in my head that low-key sexual behavior (apparently defined in my head as kissing and making out and similar types of behaviors) - presuming appropriate conversations and/or past behavior along those lines - has similar guidelines, as well. I may or may not be actively interested enough to have initiated on my own, and may or may not actually have a libido (although this is likely to remind me that it exists), but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy smooching and making out. (this does have a caveat relating to barrier rules and such, in that that is yet another significant boundary in my head - so being good with smooching and making out and such does not mean anything about anything further)
[1]The casual touch definition in my head = generally fairly brief, but very intentional, contact. Sorta like a touch-based ping.
[2] If there isn't past initiating of [specific type of touch] with someone and it has not been discussed as something that's ok, though, [specific type of touch] from them will probably weird me out and not be a good thing. Probably because I need at some level to be able to expect that it'll happen, and people that I've not initiated [specific type of touch] with are, and might never be, in my head as someone that makes sense with.
[3]I note that 'if I've initiated' are also covered by cases where things are mutually initiated!
I tend very much to not like to ask people to do things if I have tending to be the one asking, because that will start to make me feel like they don't actually _want_ to do it, and are just agreeing to be kind to me. I want people to be doing things involving me because they want to, and not only because I've asked.
This has interesting effects both when I'm interacting with someone who is known to be bad about suggesting things or thinking to interact with people (regardless of actual interest), and when I'm strongly needing interaction of a certain type but those who I can ask don't tend to actively want that kind of interaction. I will still tend to ask, but it'll take me longer to do so. I frequently won't realize that I'm doing it, as these are my default behavior, and are not conscious.
Similarly default is the fact that, the more strongly I need something, the more likely I am to hide it, entirely unconsciously. I think it relates to the not wanting to be the one asking all the time and wanting people to do things involving me because they want to. But... it can be a problem, especially if I don't realize that I'm doing it, and it takes the need smacking me upside the head to realize that it's there (which is generally far later than when I _should_ have been having it addressed).
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no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:26 pm (UTC)Gah!!
Okay, now how do you feel about "people making LJ posts which describe exactly what is in your head so intimately that you start clawing at your your scalp looking for the little nanotech transmitters that surely must have been implanted while you were sleeping"?
I am curiously intrigued and yet freaked out at the same time right now...
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:31 pm (UTC)*laugh* Most of the people I read, I read because they do that, or have.
I am curiously intrigued and yet freaked out at the same time right now...
*evil laugh* Excellent...
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 04:26 pm (UTC)I love being touched. I crave it. There are some days that I'm walking around campus and I see someone that I just want to grab and cuddle and stroke their hair. It's an intimate kind of desire, but not necessarily a sexual desire. I love kissing, and hugging, and just touching in general.
But I'm usually afraid to initiate this kind of touching. I need to be assured six ways til Sunday that it's OKAY to touch this person in that way. I'm not one of those people that can just sling an arm around someone as I'm telling them a secret. I'm always terrified that I'll come across as a creepy pervy toucher guy. When someone touches me first, I'm thrilled, but even then, I worry: "This is okay, right? You're touching me so I can hug you back, yes? You're not going to run away screaming now? Really?? You sure!?". Sometimes I think I ask those things out loud. :(
But I'm addicted to physical touch, surely.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 09:03 pm (UTC)This is such an unfortunate gender-based effect. There are enough truly creepy guys out there that it creates a presumption of sketchiness for everyone, and the more socially awkward you are the more you have to work to figure out if you have overcome it with a particular person. Talking to my female friends, they don't normally remember I am making this sort of calculation at all, because their experiences relating to casual touch are so different.
As for me, I'm normally so disconnected from people that I have to be _really_ sure of them before I feel I can touch them casually. This tends to lead to not thinking of it as an option rather than sitting around being unsure of myself, though.
That said, as far as I know I have never touched anyone in a way that made them uncomfortable, aside from SOs when they were injured or unwell and I didn't realize it. So, I'm pretty confident that my grasp on reality here is not entirely firm.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 09:23 pm (UTC)With me, that uncertainty usually leads to me cursing myself months afterward, when I talk to the person online and they tell me: "Well, I was planning on throwing you down and shagging you senselessly right there in the club, but you seemed like you didn't even want to touch me, so...".
no subject
Date: 2005-04-21 04:18 am (UTC)If I ever have this problem, I am blissfully ignorant of it! I'd rather have it than not, I think. Of course, people are trouble.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:27 pm (UTC)One of the things I find myself constantly amazed by is how much I seem to be drawn to "touchers". (And, also, seriously creaped out in the case of touchers I otherwise dislike or don't know yet.) Almost every single person I have been seriously attracted to has been someone who, if I didn't like them, I would feel they were violating my personal space as a matter of simply the way they act towards people in general.
And one of the things I find most frustrating about myself is that I am not a toucher myself. Much as I crave it and am affected by it, I'm generally just not used to it enough to initiate.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:35 pm (UTC)I... almost have this problem.
If a) I'm not sure the touch would be welcomed, or b) I've not gotten sufficient touch lately, I won't touch people.
If I'm getting enough touch, and I'm not sure the touch would be welcome (but think it might), I will initiate, and I am _far_ more touchy when I'm getting enough touch. Which seems rather odd, but still true.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:01 pm (UTC)This actually makes a lot of sense to me. If I am getting enough touch, then I am in a far better and more grounded place to be reading the signals coming from someone else. If I have not had enough touch, I don't trust the ways that I might misconstrue someone elses signals.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:09 pm (UTC)I'm not sure I was consciously aware of that as a possible reason, but yes. Thank you!
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:53 pm (UTC)Aren't we a great pair! I tend to not initiate casual touch easily. It's only with B that I can do it with anything approaching comfort, and that's probably only because I live with him. Everyone else, it takes conscious thought and effort to do it.
So uh, probably best to advise more people, so's they can fine-tune their vibe-o-meter to discern between "forced because I don't want physical contact" and "forced because I don't like physical contact".
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 03:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 05:53 pm (UTC)I have lots of different people inhabiting my brain matter, don't you know? ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 05:48 pm (UTC)*smile* I know. Most (all?) of the local people I'm totally comfortable with touch from are like that. It's really quite odd.
Is it because you don't think to, don't want to, or something else?
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:10 pm (UTC)- I don't think to. I'm usually enjoying the person's company, or not, and touch doesn't enter into it. For me, someone's sense of humour, intelligence, and general laid-back-edness are more important to me than physical contact. (Because I'm a smart-ass, and so those three are kind of a requirement in order to get along with me at all.)
- I don't like to. While I'm pretty literate at non-verbal communication, I always second-guess myself when it comes to physical contact, because that's pushing into someone else's personal space. Which ties in nicely with:
- I don't like being casually touched. I will give hugs or handshakes as alohas (new englified word for "hellos/goodbyes"), but beyond that, I don't care for it. Few people are NVC-literate enough to know when I want it and when I don't, and since I can rarely articulate when I want it and when I don't, I err on the side of "don't".
There are times when I know I don't want casual touch. Such as when I'm at work, and there's That One Lady who's friendly and motherly and does the arm-touch-haha thing. I can cope with that, even though I don't like it... but I don't like it.
With friends, the line can get blurrier, largely because I can't define it:
* Some people, I don't like touching me at all, regardless of whether/how much I like them. (It is possible for me to not be averse to someone's company, and not like physical touch. I can't think of an instance where I am friends with someone (as vs. acquaintances) and I don't like physical touch. Neat!)
* Most people, I'm neutral on the topic. Most often, it's just that the topic doesn't come up. (Hanging out at a party, for instance.) In some sitches, it's that I don't mind physical touch from the person, I just wouldn't seek it out.
* For a rare subset of people, we just kind of fall into cuddles, and god only knows how the hell that happened. But I'd love to know, so's I can seek out more people like that.
* And then there are close people/sweeties/whoever. They have general open season to initiate physical touch ("to touch me" sounded too dirty) with me. It still doesn't mean I think to do it myself. I don't know what to do with that.
(I'm not even talking anything about attraction or sexual foo or what have you here. Er, obviously.)
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:13 pm (UTC)*chuckle* Indeed, that sounds like it'd be good to know how it happens! :)
And then there are close people/sweeties/whoever. They have general open season to initiate physical touch ("to touch me" sounded too dirty) with me. It still doesn't mean I think to do it myself. I don't know what to do with that.
Well, if it weren't that I think I've verified that sometimes you _do_ actively enjoy cuddling, I'd say that it's probably because you don't get much from it, so don't think of it. But, um. I don't know. :)
(I'm not even talking anything about attraction or sexual foo or what have you here. Er, obviously.)
Indeed.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:17 pm (UTC)Yeah, 11 times out of 12, the cuddle-falling was initiated by the other person. (Amusingly, most recently it happened via a third party. Not at all that I'm arguing.)
Well, if it weren't that I think I've verified that sometimes you _do_ actively enjoy cuddling, I'd say that it's probably because you don't get much from it, so don't think of it. But, um. I don't know. :)
I'm not sure, right now, if I actively dislike physical contact across the board, or if there's just some mental blockage in my head against it, or what. Alls I know is, most often, I don't care for it, and don't entirely trust it.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:21 pm (UTC)I think you just jumped from specific (initiating with sweeties) to general (across the board).
_I_ don't like touch across the board. I need a certain amount of comfort with a person before touch is comfortable.
Does 'across the board' somehow relate to 'with sweeties'?
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:24 pm (UTC)I think I meant in response to your statement here:
Well, if it weren't that I think I've verified that sometimes you _do_ actively enjoy cuddling, I'd say that it's probably because you don't get much from it, so don't think of it.
I was responding that I'm not sure if it's (oh, I used poor word choice there, no wonder; I confused myself, hurrah!) that I don't get much from cuddling - clearly not entirely the case - or if it's that there's some something in my head that prevents me from wanting it.
It's me, so it's probably the latter. Something about independence and opening myself up and such. They're my pet issues.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:28 pm (UTC)It's me, so it's probably the latter. Something about independence and opening myself up and such. They're my pet issues.
*nod* I can certainly understand that! Considering how much it frequently frustrates the hell out of me to need something which _requires_ other people to be involved in it, and all. :)
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:31 pm (UTC)And now we're back in the brain-share zone, hurrah!
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:13 pm (UTC)[and then I go on to define it]
What I can't define is what makes these groups of people different. The last item is obvious, but I can't tell you why Bob is different from Kate is different from Mary. (Random names.) Why I don't like contact from one person, don't think about it with a second, and wouldn't mind it a'tall from a third.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 06:15 pm (UTC)I've mostly given up on trying to, at this point. I mean, I know that me liking contact from people (of various types) means a certain amount of comfort, and the more comfortable, the more contact types I will like.
But I can't - beyond some trends - explain what makes that difference. And I'm not sure I will ever be able to do so, as I think it happens at far too deep a level in my psyche.
Me too, on almost all counts
Date: 2005-04-18 04:17 pm (UTC)Now that I’ve realized I do this, I’m trying to be better about reality testing.
Re: Me too, on almost all counts
Date: 2005-04-18 05:50 pm (UTC)Oh, I enjoy that, as well. But it feels like it fits into the 'cuddling' category, in terms of there being fewer people I am comfortable with that from.
If I want something from somebody, I’ll tell them. And then, you know, I won’t mention it again, because I don’t want to pester.
Heh! I don't exactly do that, but I do get tired of reminding people of things, so it tends to take it getting to be a strong want for me to mention it again.
Re: Me too, on almost all counts
Date: 2005-04-18 07:44 pm (UTC)I've seen this trait described as common among rational types in the MBTI sense. It is partially a communication efficiency thing. I've said 'X', therefore 'X' is true until I say otherwise. I know for me this is true.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 04:24 pm (UTC)Okay, guilty as charged. In my case, this has to do with not feeling "worthy" or "deserving" of what I need, which takes a surprising amount of work to overcome. But I'm getting bolder about casual touching, and the more I find that it's more often welcome or at least tolerated and hardly ever rejected, the more I'm willing to do things like greet people with two-handed handshakes, do that cute hand-on-the-forearm thing ("oh RIGHT! i know EXACTLY what you're talking about!"), and so on.
Much of my world these days is discovering that things are scary but much better over all when I just ask for what I want.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 05:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 05:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 07:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 07:35 pm (UTC)Yes! Perfect description!
no subject
Date: 2005-04-18 07:36 pm (UTC)The not asking for what you want? Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. If the other party does not ask about doing X then obviously it is not mutually desired, right? And if it's not mutual then it is not worth doing with that person. Except, of course, maybe the other person wants to be asked and is not an initiator. This is why it is hard for two introverts to get together, right? Somebody has to do the asking.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-20 04:48 am (UTC)People's reaction to this really bugs me. It's like people thinking I'm frowning when I'm really not; there's no good way to convince them that I'm really not upset, especially when I am a little upset at having to explain it.