[link.spelling and brains.visualization]

[wispfox]

Buh. No wonder I have such trouble with spelling. For those who might be surprised by this, based on my generally good spelling here - that's due to a _lot_ of work as a kid, and I still look a lot of words up. http://www.dictionary.com is _so_ my friend. I also memorized and use all those annoying rules about spelling. I also tend to have to re-read everything I write, especially if I'm tired, to find all the mistakes I made and didn't notice. (Interestingly, I _do_ generally have a good sense of what words 'look right', which is a lot of why my spelling seems to be perfectly fine)

"That's where you 'see' a complete word in your mind's eye, whether you're reading it or writing it. And if you can't visualize it, you're just winging it based on what it sounds like. In a language with as many irregularly spelled words as English, you're going to be wrong a lot of the time." (link found in griffen's journal)

Seeing a word in my mind's eye.

Right.

If any of you have ever either tried to spell something to me without giving me the time to write it down, or wanted me to tell you how to spell something without me writing it down, you've run head on into the fact that - unless it's three or four letters long, and sometimes not even then - I _cannot_ visualize words in my head.

There are some words I can spell aloud without writing them down first. My name, due to long practice. I think that's about it.

I don't know how many of you have noticed that I also don't tend to say numbers combinations as anything but individual digits. It feels... almost related to the above, but not quite, since the words for numbers (eg 'one') and the symbols used (and '1') are, in fact, a fairly effortful and entirely _not_ automatic translation for me, getting exponentially more difficult the longer the number. This makes (for example) singing a song where someone wrote out something like a year entirely in number symbols rather than words slightly problematic. I tend to not be able to figure it out fast enough and sorta stop singing during that piece.

I can also spell words without writing them down if they happen to be easily - and sensibly - broken into smaller words. If I remember that can be done for any specific word. (Like the name of the town I live in)

I wonder if this somehow relates to my major difficulty with pulling words out of my head? And with games like Scrabble?


Uh. "Reading is transforming letters into sound," according to the article I linked to above. Not in _my_ head, it isn't. Translating what I'm reading into sound is quite a lot more effort for me than reading is. Reading aloud probably means I'm not taking in any of what I'm reading. It's why - for the most part, although I'm getting less averse to it - I tend to not read things aloud. (I'm sure the fact that I process written things better than things I'm hearing comes into effect, as well)

Ok, enough being fascinated by this article. :)

Comments

[eisa.livejournal.com]

I don't visualize words in my mind either, but I can spell without writing them down.. this is because my kinesthetic memory lets me remember typing them or writing them by hand and I can rely on that to identify letters.

[motyl.livejournal.com]

Kinesthetic memory only helps if you start out right... I got suspicious at some of my typos and discovered that even when I type intentionally slowly I still type 'teh' fairly frequently =P

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Kinesthetic memory only helps if you start out right.

True. I do a lot of correcting of the things I write after I write them, although this happens less as I type more frequently. I _do_ manage to learn how to spell things, but slowly.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

this is because my kinesthetic memory lets me remember typing them or writing them by hand and I can rely on that to identify letters.

Neat! I can sometimes remember things based on typing them, but the disconnect between speaking and writing is significant enough that translating between the two is far more effort than just finding paper on which to write. And writing by hand is way high effort, as well, for me.

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

I did ask you about spelling sometime before, due to the lack of visual memory thing... :)

You do have something though, because many people don't even have the "word looks right" thing. It sounds more like auditory processing difficulty than visual memory.

There's some interesting things in psychology with two sets of patients, *one has a store of words memorized, and changes everything else into those words. tweet->treat
*one has spelling/grammar/rhyme "rules" memorized and incorrectly changes things. tough rhymes with through


Yeah. I definitely can both see/hear words mentally. But writing them down and looking at them is best.

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

Instead of analyzing parts to identify the word, this area instantly recognizes the entire word. Reading goes from a halting letter-by-letter toil to a lovely word-by-word glide.

Also, this part isn't entirely true (reading psychology). We don't read whole words at a time. We read a certain distance, based on spacing, skip common words (a, an, the), and reprocess complicated ones. We also go back a lot more often than we realize.

That's why theselinesaresohardtoread. The spacingisbad, sowecan'tfigureoutwhereto start andm ustf igur eout word slet terb ylet ter.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Oddly - the only time I had trouble reading the weird spacing stuff such hat I was concious of slowing down was the stuff with spaces _in_ words.

Sure, I didn't read the other oddly spaced stuff as easily as not, but it didn't slow me down much.

I don't know if I read whole words at a time. I feel like I read chunks of words at a time...

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I did ask you about spelling sometime before, due to the lack of visual memory thing... :)

Yep. I remember that conversation. :) Although, I note - it's less about a visual memory and more about not being able to visualize much. I can recognize things as things I've seen before when I see them, even though I can't visualize them.

You do have something though, because many people don't even have the "word looks right" thing. It sounds more like auditory processing difficulty than visual memory.

... See above. :)

[dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com]

Huh! I also will frequently write out words to spell them out to someone because otherwise I run the risk of getting lost halfway through, although I can often just spell it out loud if I stop and concentrate. I am also terrible at Scrabble and text twister games -- I can't "see" the words in a combo of letters, perhaps because I file words by sound and not appearance, and in English the sounds are not obvious from appearance? I am good at the words on a page --> sound bit, though and will often read uncoooperative sentences out loud to help me understand them.

And I *can* spell and have always been able to, by the "looks right" method. I can also often visualize where on a page the answer to a test question that I can't remember is, frustratingly. The exceptions to the spelling rule are words with combinations of s and c in them, like license, which I learned to spell earlier this year by brute force.

It's interesting that you process written things well but don't translate heard things into visualized written ones... I definitely do the reverse.

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

I can also often visualize where on a page the answer to a test question that I can't remember is, frustratingly.

I do that! :(

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

otherwise I run the risk of getting lost halfway through

Yes, although with me it's almost gaurunteed.

I can't "see" the words in a combo of letters

Neither can I. I have trouble with unscrambling letters, and with letters which are not in the orientation I am accustomed to (ie, if they are written out top down, like in some signs, it takes me a while to read them; upside down, backwards, and sideways are all very difficult for me).

can also often visualize where on a page the answer to a test question that I can't remember is, frustratingly.

I sometimes can do this, too. Although I'm not sure I call it visualizing, because I can't actually _see_ anything. Otherwise it'd not be frustrating. :)

It's interesting that you process written things well but don't translate heard things into visualized written ones... I definitely do the reverse.

I... can't even imagine being able to translate spoken into written, without processing it first. The problem is with the processing. And I think my processing is _better_ than my translation, which might be why I don't do that. Or, the fact that I visualize poorly. Perhaps both!

[sandhawke.livejournal.com]

I once testified in a very serious criminal case, while I worked at RPI.


Clerk: Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Me: I do.

Clerk: Please state and spell your name for the record.

(I did)

Clerk: And you your current employer?

Me: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Clerk: Please spell that, for the record.

Me: (takes a deep breath) R - E - N - S - S - E - L - A - E - R - P - O ....

[ oh, hey, I could use this for the ten things meme ]

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

*utterly impressed*

Wow.

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

I also am a terrible speller, but for different reasons. Way back in 1st grade when we were supposed to be learning to spell, I rebelled against the system. English spelling does not make sense! There's a set of nominal rules, then there's a set of alternate rules, then the exceptions to the standard set of rules and the exceptions to the alternate set, arrrrgh! Why can't they all be spelled with one set of rules???? I was much to logical for a 7 year old. I refused to learn for awhile and decided it just did not matter. I'm slowly getting over that attitude. :) www.dictionary.com is my friend too.

Contrary to what you've said, I've read in a number of places that reading is not about interpreting letters to words to meaning. Most people pattern recognize the word directly map it to the meaning. I'm that way. I can tell if a word is miss spelled in writing but still struggle with writing it our myself correctly. I should did up a pointer to an article that talks about it.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Contrary to what you've said, I've read in a number of places that reading is not about interpreting letters to words to meaning. Most people pattern recognize the word directly map it to the meaning. I'm that way. I can tell if a word is miss spelled in writing but still struggle with writing it our myself correctly. I should did up a pointer to an article that talks about it.

...

I said that?

I think I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here.

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

I was unclear and incorrect to boot. I was referring to your quote from the article:

Uh. "Reading is transforming letters into sound," according to the article I linked to above. Not in _my_ head, it isn't.

I had not read the whole article when I responded. I should have, it is a very interesting article.

I was trying to get across my understanding that when we read we are mostly pattern recognizing words on the fly, not going letter by letter as the bit you quoted above seem to imply. I was taking the quote's meaning out of context, however. bridgetester actually quoted a bit from the article that precisely gets to the point I was trying to make: Instead of analyzing parts to identify the word, this area instantly recognizes the entire word. Reading goes from a halting letter-by-letter toil to a lovely word-by-word glide., plus she added more interesting information about reading patterns.

After reading the article completely I wonder if I might have a, very well compensated for, bit of dyslexia. It is not the first time that thought has occurred to me. If I understand my mind well enough, without having and MRI to poke inside, I think I have the "third part" of the brain involved in reading working for the word recognition portion, but somehow I have a disconnect between it and my output to writing. It is possible my condition is just like the author of that article but I've compensated more. I can spell some things without having to check!

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I was taking the quote's meaning out of context, however.

Ah, I see. I apparently tend to assume that people will read things that I'm talking about when I include a link to them. :)

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

I usually do read the articles people point to too. I got distracted part way through reading that article yet still felt like commenting on it. Silly me. :) The later sections of the article were much more in depth and interesting.

On another line of thought. I'm on vacation in Jamaica now. I'm attempting to beam some extra sunshine your way. Let me know if it works. :)

[regyt.livejournal.com]

Interesting. We differ here. I very much do visualize words when I hear them or say them or am trying to spell then. But I do not hear words when I read or write them, generally.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I think that if my visulization were better, I would probably visualize the things I hear. Very rarely, usually when I'm near a dream-state, I will be visualizing things as if I'm typing them out.

[leiacat.livejournal.com]

I can't spell things aloud either, but I have mostly attributed that to my foreigness, and the fact that it's a skill I didn't pick up early enough for it to be natural to me.

In Russian, I've always had a very good feel for how things were supposed to be spelled, but Russian is slightly less arbitrary about it. (It is somewhat, but not nearly as badly as English.) In Russian, though, there is no concept of words being pronounced by letter-names. (If one is, say, talking on the phone and wants to dictate a name, one might do it by letters by naming words (usually person-names) that start with those letters. But if there is a question of "how do you write this word?", one would just say it one syllable at a time, sounding out every letter as it should be written.)

It didn't take me too long to develop a pretty decent intuition of how English words ought to be spelled, and when I write I am usually fairly good at it. But translating words to letter-names without actually looking at the word is nearly impossible. For frequently used words (name, address), I memorize the letter-name sequence so I can rattle it off, but for most words, I would goof it up if I tried. With short ones, if I take the time, I might be able to vizualize them long enough to spell, but anything longer than 5 letters or so, and I _will_ get lost unless I can actually write it down.

I never got too good at word games in English, either. I don't know if it's because I was too scared to feel like I suck at it after being a word-game ace in my first language, or just for lack of trying, but scrambled English letters don't put themselves into words into my brain nearly as readily as Russian ones used to.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I can't spell things aloud either, but I have mostly attributed that to my foreigness, and the fact that it's a skill I didn't pick up early enough for it to be natural to me.

Huh! Explanation fascinating, and makes sense.

And interestingly similar to how I am, with English being my first language (well, in as much as any language is, since I do have to translate into words for purposes of indexing things in my head, as well as into speaking/writing words).

[leiacat.livejournal.com]

And interestingly similar to how I am, with English being my first language (well, in as much as any language is, since I do have to translate into words for purposes of indexing things in my head, as well as into speaking/writing words).

I just had a small Aha! moment. :)

I actually think in words a fair bit, and I do sorta visualize them, I just don't remember the visualization long enough to say it aloud. So I can write fine, I can spell words in my brain fine, but if I need to process it any more than that, I need to record it, because other things that I might have to do (like spelling aloud) overload that portion of my brain and render me unable to keep track of the whole word at once.