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Feb. 27th, 2004 05:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wispfoxMmm. Thin mints.
Also! Interesting conversation on jealousy/envy made my brain go all thinky, so I'm going to attempt to paraphrase my thoughts on the topic.
First, there was an attempt to define jealousy and envy, at least partly because there _are_ so many possible ways of defining it.
To me, there's jealousy - 'if I can't have something, no one should have that something', and envy - 'Why can't I have that, too?', which may or may not have a component of simply not getting enough of foo, where foo can be any number of things that are wanted (sometimes directly, sometimes not).
I don't comprehend jealousy, based on my previous definition, but understand _entirely_ too well how envy feels. Much to my annoyance/discontent/unhappiness.
However, a major part of envy, for me, seems to be comfort in (and understanding of) whatever relationship it is that is causing the emotional response, _in addition_ to getting enough of whatever I need from the relationship. If I'm comfortable in the relationship, it takes a lot longer for lack of something to get to the point of causing envy. If I'm _not_, I can get stupidly envious. And I rarely, if ever, get envious of stuff not relating to a relationship of an intimate emotional nature.
There's also a certain amount of abandonment fears in there, too, I think.
It also seems to be more likely to come up the stronger I feel about a person. Probably logically.
Then, there was conversation about whether or not either jealousy or envy, were bad, in and of themselves.
Jealousy, when I run into it in other people, worries me. People as possessions just makes me nervous. So does the idea of people trying to control other people's behavior.
I suspect strongly that jealousy would also feel bad from the inside, were I experiencing it.
But emotions, in and of themselves, are not bad. Frequently, they are a signal of other things, and trying to hide from them is generally a _really_ bad idea. And can _make_ the emotions 'bad', because they may decide to come back out of hiding explosively or at a really bad time. Or both.
Envy? Not bad, either. Unpleasent, hell yes. Uncomfortable, yes. But, at least in my experience, _always_ a signal of other things. Sometimes simply not getting enough of something through an oversight or timing or such. Sometimes it signals the immpending end of something. Sometimes it's illustrating difficulty in letting something go. Talking about it has tended to help, presuming that there are not reasons for which that is not possible, or I was not too scared to do so. Even if it can sometimes feel really ridiculous to need to talk about something over and over again, as I slowly stop being needy about whatever it is.
Finally, I had a couple more thoughts about my own experience with envy.
It's even more specific than relating to relationships of an intimate emotional nature. It's relating to things (usually actions relating to a specific person, rather than that action in general. I can also get the more general one if I'm just generally touch-deprived) that I have had happen and no longer do (or no longer get enough of) - it appears to be as much made up of missing something as of wanting it to happen to me, and is generally triggered by seeing it - or, less strongly, knowing about it - happening with someone else.
I don't seem to get envy of things that I have never had. Possibly because I have a significant amount of trouble imagining things that I have never experienced. Therefore, whatever it might be that other people might have is simply are not real enough to me for it to occur to me to want it, except abstractly. Certainly not in a way where someone else having it would hurt or cause me problems.
The possible exception to this is if I something that I want is very very _close_ to what I have experienced. In which case, it'll be me wanting whatever it is that is very close, but will mostly be based on that which I have actually experienced, and will still largely be made up of missing whatever it was.
Thus, my confusion about envy which relates to things I have never experienced. I simply cannot get a strong enough sense of it to want it, strongly. The closest I get will be some amount of thinking that it might be pleasant or fun or enjoyable, should it happen to me.
Interesting.
And to think I sometimes think that not being able to imagine/understand things I've not experienced was a _bad_ thing!
Also! Interesting conversation on jealousy/envy made my brain go all thinky, so I'm going to attempt to paraphrase my thoughts on the topic.
First, there was an attempt to define jealousy and envy, at least partly because there _are_ so many possible ways of defining it.
To me, there's jealousy - 'if I can't have something, no one should have that something', and envy - 'Why can't I have that, too?', which may or may not have a component of simply not getting enough of foo, where foo can be any number of things that are wanted (sometimes directly, sometimes not).
I don't comprehend jealousy, based on my previous definition, but understand _entirely_ too well how envy feels. Much to my annoyance/discontent/unhappiness.
However, a major part of envy, for me, seems to be comfort in (and understanding of) whatever relationship it is that is causing the emotional response, _in addition_ to getting enough of whatever I need from the relationship. If I'm comfortable in the relationship, it takes a lot longer for lack of something to get to the point of causing envy. If I'm _not_, I can get stupidly envious. And I rarely, if ever, get envious of stuff not relating to a relationship of an intimate emotional nature.
There's also a certain amount of abandonment fears in there, too, I think.
It also seems to be more likely to come up the stronger I feel about a person. Probably logically.
Then, there was conversation about whether or not either jealousy or envy, were bad, in and of themselves.
Jealousy, when I run into it in other people, worries me. People as possessions just makes me nervous. So does the idea of people trying to control other people's behavior.
I suspect strongly that jealousy would also feel bad from the inside, were I experiencing it.
But emotions, in and of themselves, are not bad. Frequently, they are a signal of other things, and trying to hide from them is generally a _really_ bad idea. And can _make_ the emotions 'bad', because they may decide to come back out of hiding explosively or at a really bad time. Or both.
Envy? Not bad, either. Unpleasent, hell yes. Uncomfortable, yes. But, at least in my experience, _always_ a signal of other things. Sometimes simply not getting enough of something through an oversight or timing or such. Sometimes it signals the immpending end of something. Sometimes it's illustrating difficulty in letting something go. Talking about it has tended to help, presuming that there are not reasons for which that is not possible, or I was not too scared to do so. Even if it can sometimes feel really ridiculous to need to talk about something over and over again, as I slowly stop being needy about whatever it is.
Finally, I had a couple more thoughts about my own experience with envy.
It's even more specific than relating to relationships of an intimate emotional nature. It's relating to things (usually actions relating to a specific person, rather than that action in general. I can also get the more general one if I'm just generally touch-deprived) that I have had happen and no longer do (or no longer get enough of) - it appears to be as much made up of missing something as of wanting it to happen to me, and is generally triggered by seeing it - or, less strongly, knowing about it - happening with someone else.
I don't seem to get envy of things that I have never had. Possibly because I have a significant amount of trouble imagining things that I have never experienced. Therefore, whatever it might be that other people might have is simply are not real enough to me for it to occur to me to want it, except abstractly. Certainly not in a way where someone else having it would hurt or cause me problems.
The possible exception to this is if I something that I want is very very _close_ to what I have experienced. In which case, it'll be me wanting whatever it is that is very close, but will mostly be based on that which I have actually experienced, and will still largely be made up of missing whatever it was.
Thus, my confusion about envy which relates to things I have never experienced. I simply cannot get a strong enough sense of it to want it, strongly. The closest I get will be some amount of thinking that it might be pleasant or fun or enjoyable, should it happen to me.
Interesting.
And to think I sometimes think that not being able to imagine/understand things I've not experienced was a _bad_ thing!
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no subject
Date: 2004-02-27 10:38 pm (UTC)I sometimes wonder if that is so, because I am not particularly ambitious, but when I get a twinge of competitiveness, it usually marches along with some kind of envy.
Blue Ribbons, dammit! Trophies!
no subject
Date: 2004-03-01 04:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-27 11:33 pm (UTC)No, the ones I envy are the ones who just naturally have the luck or talent to win without even trying hard.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-28 12:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-28 07:31 am (UTC)Um. That's not always what it's about (or all it's about, when it is about that).
Though if you see it that way, I can certainly understand why it would worry you.
It might be worth noting that I have heard more people describe envy and jealousy in the reverse of the descriptions here -- that they feel JEALOUS when they feel deprived of something they want/need/feel attached to, and ENVIOUS when they desire that other people not have something if they can't have it.
People try to control other people's behavior all the time. Do laws and negotiation make you nervous? I would consider those "controlling," to some degree, myself. Is there something specific that it bothers you to see controlled, or some specific method of control that icks you?
no subject
Date: 2004-03-01 04:06 pm (UTC)Huh. Now _that_ confuses me! I can't really parse that idea, so I'm going to leave it be for now.
Jealousy, to me, does not necessarily mean that someone _does_ control someone's behavior, but in my experience, does tend to have a strong feeling of wanting to. Due to fear, from what I can tell. Fear of loss of that thing or person. That fear, while not as overt a form of control, can act just as strongly as such on someone for whom hurting other people is painful for one's self. Not that that's a particularly healthy state to be in, of course. Still.
I'm not sure I'm verbalizing this well.
People try to control other people's behavior all the time. Do laws and negotiation make you nervous? I would consider those "controlling," to some degree, myself. Is there something specific that it bothers you to see controlled, or some specific method of control that icks you?
It appears to be more specific than what I said. I guess...
Control over, or by, a specific person, rather than a group of people.
I'm bothered by individuals having control over other people, whether in the plural or the singular. I'm bothered by the idea of a single person's idea of what is or is not right being used by that person to dictate what others can do.
I think a part of it is that I think that people need to learn who they are and what they want, and having someone else be responsible for their decisions won't cause that to happen. Even if life might be easier that way for some people.
Jealousy ...
Date: 2004-02-28 04:04 pm (UTC)Re: Jealousy ...
Date: 2004-03-10 06:00 pm (UTC)