wispfox | (no subject)

Interesting question in someone else's journal got me all define-y again.

Wooooords.

So. The question was, basically, what would cause you to get into a relationship with someone? Are they different from the reasons you would walk away?

The answer I gave leaned _heavily_ towards also needing a definition of friend, since that is a huge, huge requirement for me. In addition to that, I needed an appropriate connection, and attraction on my part.

And the loss of any of these is enough of a reason for me to need to stop the relationship (although I may not manage to do it immediately, depending on the level of my investment in it). Because... if any of those go away, what's the point? (And, attraction doesn't have to be an always thing; it just needs to not be _gone_. My attraction levels fluxuate wildly according to season, but even at my lowest, I still know that I am or am not attracted to people. Just not necessarily actively.)

What I was finding more interesting is exactly how _many_ different things 'friend' seems to have as part of it.

It's not just about people being cool. It's not just about people being interesting. Both are good, and both are enough for me to be willing to interact with people, but it's not enough to be my friend.

-It's about someone feeling 'right' to me.

-It's about enjoying being around them, if I'm in a state where I want to be around _anyone_. Indeed, it's about seeking out their company, whether real-time or asyncronous, in-person or not. In-person is preferred, of course, but not always an option.

-It's about how healthy they are for me - if someone has, for example, a mental health problem which they refuse to acknowledge or attempt to do anything about, I _can't_ be close to them. It _will_ hurt me. I am one who needs too badly to heal, and have been known to drain myself too far before. I... think that a physical health problem will still make me ache for a person, but is less likely for me to try to fix it, or to drain myself because of it. I don't have nearly as much pull in that direction.

-They need to be able to accept what is, and not try to make me, or the relationship, something we cannot be.

Fairly new a realization, and something I still sometimes struggle with in myself. Sometimes I really _want_ relationships to be different than they are. Doesn't mean it's right, and doesn't mean I will try to do anything about that want. Also tends to be a fairly short-term thing, until I can remember/understand _why_ something can't be different.

But very important; trying to force change in other people is pointless, draining, and not a terribly good sign of someone actually wanting to be friends with _you_, rather than what they think you are, or want you to be.

Now - I differentiate this from someone trying to help you through/with things that you _want_ changed, and to help you see things that you may not have been aware of in yourself, and similar things. These are all very _good_, very supportive things. I'm talking about trying to change you to something that is not truly you.

-It's about wanting to know more about them, and how their mind works; finding them interesting as who they are, right now. And wanting to understand both the differences and the similarities between their mind and my own. Wanting to know how their life is going, as best I can, and offer support, as best I can. Even when I'm talking about people I see rarely (*waves to

starandrea*), this is true.

-It's about people who tickle my brain, both in terms of new and interesting things to learn about, and in terms of sheer silliness.

-It's about not only accepting me and all my strangenesses, but *appreciating* them. I can easily remember a time when I did not think that was a reasonable need on my part. I thought not being actively against them was enough... It still sometimes confuses me that people *like* the things about myself that I think are really strange.

-It's about joy in the simple fact of their existance.

-It's about them not trying to change themselves to what they think I want. If you are someone I think of as a friend, I want you to be _you_. Hell, even if you are not someone I think of as a friend, be yourself, but it affects my life much less if you are not.

-It's a sharing, of both pain, and joy. Good _and_ bad. If you won't talk about both with me, do I really know you?

-It's about trust. Can I be myself with you? Can I not worry about censoring myself (aside, of course, from things that are not mine to tell)? The less I worry about this, the more joy I gain, and the more pleasing someone's company is for me. This falls into the category of effortless people.

Can I believe that the things you say are _true_, or at least as true as is possible with the current level of understanding (I realize that people change).

Does your emotional feel coincide with what you say and do, or is there a conflict? A conflict will make me unable to trust, even if it's not something that someone is consciously aware of. This is something that's _very_ difficult to explain. Kinda like trying to explain to someone that I don't have enough of a connection with them.

-There has to be enough of a connection. I cannot really explain this. It's too non-verbal for me, too deep. I've been having trouble every time I try to explain connection and bond-related stuff, and I still don't feel like I succeed. It seems to be a case of 'if you know, you'll understand. If you don't, I can't explain it'. Which is horribly frustrating for someone who so often needs to be verbal. I'll probably continue to try, for this reason. But not right now.

I'm sure this list can continue, but I need lunch.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"It's about how healthy they are for me - if someone has, for example, a mental health problem which they refuse to acknowledge or attempt to do anything about, I _can't_ be close to them. It _will_ hurt me. I am one who needs too badly to heal, and have been known to drain myself too far before."

I have this tendency as well, although I think from your expression of it here that I've yet to become as good about being careful of it. I still let myself get into too many wildly draining friendships and relationships following this exact pattern. I've been working on being more aware of and careful of this sort of thing lately, but it's been slow progress.

I too, used to fall into this cycle...and man, did I learn the hard way. I have somewhat of a radar now. I am pretty good at detecting early warning signs, once detected, I can safely distance without obviously and actively avoiding them...which can also lead to unintentional meddlings. I don't want to hurt them, but I really don't have the capacity in myself to handle this type of person in depth.

I don't want to hurt them, but I really don't have the capacity in myself to handle this type of person in depth.

Yes. Exactly.

And realizing that is the reason I finally stopped draining myself for other people.

It was slow progress for me, too - but letting myself get drained sufficiently far meant that I then got to _see_ how far I let myself go. And vowed to never get anywhere near that point again.

I don't make promises often or easily, but those I make - to myself or to others - I keep. I've never gotten that far again, and am gradually improving my ability to tell if someone is likely to be unhealthy for me, or if they are actually working on problems and will understand my need to take care of myself.

It's not easy. Telling people that I cannot be close to them because they are too needy is a difficult thing to say, probably because it's difficult to hear.

But very important; trying to force change in other people is pointless, draining, and not a terribly good sign of someone actually wanting to be friends with _you_, rather than what they think you are, or want you to be.

No matter how many times I learn this, I have, again and again, found myself on both the receiving and giving end of this kind of behavior. Bad me, both for taking it, and for doing it.

Now - I differentiate this from someone trying to help you through/with things that you _want_ changed, and to help you see things that you may not have been aware of in yourself, and similar things. These are all very _good_, very supportive things. I'm talking about trying to change you to something that is not truly you.

Ah, but what to do when it appears that a person wants something changed, that they want your help in changing, but they aren't being honest with you, or with themselves (or both)? Too often I've been trapped in troublesome places when I was trying to be helpful. I've had whole relationships that were about me trying to provide the help that was being requested only to have the help be rejected and me being resented for attempting to help. Blech. I still haven't learned my lesson in this area though. I keep assuming that when people come to me and ask for help, they really mean it, and I keep trying to help. My innocence in this matter is both a great strength and a terribly exploitable weakness.

There has to be enough of a connection. I cannot really explain this. It's too non-verbal for me, too deep. I've been having trouble every time I try to explain connection and bond-related stuff, and I still don't feel like I succeed. It seems to be a case of 'if you know, you'll understand. If you don't, I can't explain it'. Which is horribly frustrating for someone who so often needs to be verbal. I'll probably continue to try, for this reason. But not right now.

Yes, yes. I totally follow you here. While I certainly have "grew on me over time" friends, more generally I find that I'm close to people from whom I had an initial "good vibe." I think, probably, somewhere down deep in our brains, we have a very complex system of evaluation that can pick up on a thousand subtle clues and indicators about who someone is, and that this info is boiled down and released up to the conscious mind as a inexplicable "feeling of connection." I don't think we give these automated systems nearly enough credit. Thank you, hidden evaluation system, wherever you are.

Ah, but what to do when it appears that a person wants something
changed, that they want your help in changing, but they aren't being
honest with you, or with themselves (or both)?

You stop, as soon as you become aware. However you best can, and even if you have to do it with no tact. It's not healthy for anyone involved.

And yes, I _do_ know how difficult this can be...

But it's also possible. And necessary.

See, there you go, demonstrating your strength of character again. Yes, yes, yes. You are correct. I know this stuff; I've gotten plenty of the life examples that I should have learned it all by now. Now, to make the leap from theory to application. I've begun. I just gotta stick with the program.

demonstrating your strength of character again

Mmm. I think it's more about me _having_ to do these things, in order to remain myself. To not lose myself...

But I suppose that is probably where everyone's strength of character comes from!